“What does it mean to be a young Chinese woman in Spain?” This was the question that Xirou Xiao made when starting the Crab Project, which aims to explore the situation of Chinese women in Spain through body movement performance. This unique and specific profile has favored her to collaborate with various local institutions of reference, such as Museo Nacional del Prado, Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía, Museo Nacional Thyssen-bornemisza, Matadero Madrid, Centro de Cultura Contemporánea Conde Duque, CA2M (Centro de Arte Dos de Mayo), among others. Creator, artist, actress, educator, cross-cultural mediator, activist, Gestalt practitioner... Throughout her seven-year stay in Madrid, Xirou has always been interested in giving more visibility and right to speak to the Chinese community in Spanish society by launching multiple projects, including the above-mentioned Crab Project, Liwai Intercultural Action, Chinese Diaspora Network, etc.

“What does it mean to remove this imposed identity?” This is the other side of the question. It's a love-hate relationship that Xirou has with this persona: there is a continuous introspection by Xirou on how to situate herself soberly in a world where feminism is on the rise and China plays an increasingly important and even dominant role in the international community. Since these two labels can be, to some extent, imposed by the outside world, which seeks to satisfy its unreal fantasy about a stereotypical China. “It's too easy to get misled,” says Xirou. In this talk, she has shared with us her reflections on how to combat and reconcile with this persona, what it means to be and not to be, what it means to build and demolish such an identity, and about her own way of understanding, reacting to and placing herself in this world.

Portrait of Xirou Xiao

[Interviewer]
Chunzi Wu
Leo L

[Proofreader]
Susy Ye
Janelle Siu

01 FEB 2021

COULD YOU SHARE A BIT ABOUT THE CRAB PROJECT? WHO IS ITS PRIMARY AUDIENCE?

Here are the main groups of the audience: one is the Chinese community that we know, and many of them are my friends, or people interested in our action but have never watched our performance before; another one is the sponsors who are invited to get to know our artistic expressions in view of possible collaborations in the future; the third group is those who find our idea original and continue to focus on any movement of our project. Differently from other Chinese activities, our project attracts more professionals from artistic and cultural sectors. Moreover, the venue where our performance takes place is itself a contemporary art center and its associated people are normally young art lovers.

So far we have performed four live actions: the first time was in the opening ceremony of an exhibition; there were many audiences at that time, more or less one hundred and about ten percent of them were Chinese; the second time was in the “Wǒmen, wǒmen” Chinese diaspora program, the proportion of Western and Eastern audiences were half and half; the third performance was given in the Puerta del Sol where an Anti-Racism festival took place, in that context, our audience was quite multicultural among whom Chinese was about 10%; the Chinese spectators were about 5% in our performance which happened not long ago.

HOW IS THE CRAB PROJECT PERFORMANCE PERCEIVED BY THE LOCAL AUDIENCE?

Well, no matter for the Spanish or Chinese audience, our Crab Project is quite original. About the reception, the feedback we have received so far is quite positive, many people think that our project is rather attractive and would like to know more about our histories and even personal lives. Either our project’s profile or the artistic expressions can be considered quite tempting.

Before coming to Spain, I had never thought about my cultural identity. I wasn’t quite mature by that time. I used to ponder how to return to my own traditions or in other words, how to prove I am a real Chinese by satisfying this unreal oriental fantasy of the people. This was the first phase, I also call it the “initial language forming phase” because after all, I had to adapt to the local linguistic context when I first arrived. Later, when I became more mature, my attitude tremendously changed realizing that all those Chinese identity or culture is something that others expect from me, but not what I really want. So, because of that kind of expectation from the major Western audience, the common impression about Chinese culture is related to traditional art such as calligraphy, dance, and so on. Precisely due to this sort of “stereotype” towards the Chinese artistic community, I'm therefore willing to apply performance art to convey a sense of diversity and contemporaneity.

Collective Performance: Me importa un cangrejo; March, 2019. Matadero Madrid

THE VENUE OF THIS PERFORMANCE IS MATADERO MADRID, WE'VE NOTICED THAT YOU HAVE QUITE A LOT OF COLLABORATIONS WITH THE INSTITUTIONS IN SPAIN, SUCH AS MUSEO NACIONAL DEL PRADO, REINA SOFIA, THYSSEN, CONDE DUQUE, AND SO ON. CAN YOU PLEASE SHARE WITH US HOW THESE COLLABORATIONS WERE CARRIED OUT?

At the moment, most collaborations were reached by their invitation. I haven't applied for any sponsorships. The reason why we were invited was mostly that they found our profile “unique”and “original”: I am currently the only young Chinese female artist in Madrid with such a diverse identity that combines contemporary art, education, society and research. So the local artistic institutions invite me mostly out of these two concerns: first, aside from being an artist, I can also be some sort of cultural mediator and educator, who can integrate in the Chinese community. As cultural centers, they have the need of reaching more audiences and ethnicities, but it could be quite difficult for them to realize it. So, the collaboration with the local institutions may contain certain political and social purposes; Another type of invitation resides in the fact that no matter what the target group these institutions intend to reach, my participation in their projects can be significant taking into consideration my “race” and “gender”. Using art market terms, my “personal brand” is so unique and specific as to become a so-called “scarce resource”.

FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE, ARE THESE LOCAL INSTITUTIONS IN MADRID QUITE SUPPORTIVE OF PROJECTS BY FOREIGN ARTISTS?

Not really, personally I think it depends on your profile as well. The point that attracts every institution can be different. For example, the trend in Matadero inclines to activism (left-wing political), and they care about the themes related to minority, gender, sexuality, and so on. The point that tempts Centro Dos de Mayo or Reina Sofia can be another. So, the key is how your “personal profile” matches with the institutions' requirements. I just think that I'm quite lucky and my profile is as unique and specific as to let my work be somehow outstanding. Generally speaking, official recognition is still highly valued in Madrid. Which museums have your work collected and which institutions have invited you matter a lot. Besides, there is more competition instead of cooperation amongst the local institutions. For example, if Thyssen has collaborated with me, Prado would feel the urge to do something similar, which is definitely beneficial to me because I get work to do. But in general, I'm not optimistic about the art industry. In fact, most minority artists can't get enough opportunities. Even artists like me, who “dominate” some resources of the cultural and artistic institutions, should still be considered as “non-mainstream” ones in the mainstream. This is what many contemporary cultural theories call “marginality”: actually, I also find my profile a “marginality in the mainstream” in the context of the local cultural system. Just like I said in another interview, “minority artists are like substitutes on the playing field.”

APART FROM THE LOCAL CULTURAL INSTITUTIONS, DOES THE GOVERNMENT OF MADRID HAVE ANY PLANS TO SUPPORT FOREIGN ART CREATIONS? DO YOU FIND MADRID’S ATMOSPHERE OPEN AND DIVERSE?

From my personal experiences and communication with some artists, I think this has something to do with the kind of party that governs, left-wing or right-wing. This kind of political influence on the cultural industry could be obvious, although the public cultural environment characterized by certain “political currents” would not be healthy from the perspective of its long-term development, and people should be alert of that. I was fortunate to be able to introduce myself to the local artistic circuit when the Podemos party (ultra-left) governed the Community of Madrid and Carmena was the mayor, who highlighted “the participation of the public in culture and art” and financed a lot of projects launched by the immigrant community. The overall social climate in Spain, except those of extreme right, most tend to focus on diversity, especially in the field of art. As Chinese, we even have more possibilities. Even when the right-wing party like PP （Partido Popular）governs, many authorities are still quite curious about Chinese related things, thanks to the growth of the Chinese influence on the world economy. For sure the overall environment will be better if the leftists are in power, but the rightists are still interested in the work we are doing. This particularity of the Chinese community in Madrid is rather interesting.

Not all foreign artistic communities can draw such attention in Spain. It depends on which party is in power. For example, Latin or African artists may not meet the local authorities’ interests (since they know this community relatively well), but Asian, especially Chinese artists do. And most of my Spanish friends who are also artists are in a quite desperate status, they don't see their future because of the lack of resources. Moreover, the art market in Madrid shrank sharply after the financial crisis, and that makes many artists fail to make a living from their artwork, despite their races; People simply don’t find the art market compelling here, under such circumstances, it's very fortunate to live off art, personally, I’m doing rather good (at least with project funding). So, if your art profile does not match with the institutions' or market´s requirements, it is very difficult to get sponsorships, investments or the so-called “social recognition”, and many times these profiles are associated with social topics, such as immigration, feminism, environmental protection, technology and so on.

SO IN SUCH A CONTEXT, DO YOU SEE YOUR CHINESE FEMALE IDENTITY AS A “BONUS” THAT COULD BE MADE “USE” OF?

I‘m constantly asking myself, to what extent I want to “take advantage of” my Chinese female identity. Receiving so many invitations at first, I was kind of satisfied. Moreover, it's easy for me to “feel good about myself”. Then little by little I start to ask what is the real purpose of these collaborations. Before every invitation, now I will ask “why and for what do you want to cooperate with the Chinese community and with me?”. Through responses to such basic questions, I will consider whether it is worth working with them and think about how I can improve my work. It's another process of situated practice. As a case in point, a young stage artist once responded, “I hope there would be Chinese and black people in the third part of my work, because they do not appear in the previous two parts...” For invitations like this we have no interest; Another possibility is that the institutions themselves may not be aware of what “the Chinese community” is about. In this case, I will decide, with the time and money permitted, whether I am willing to do “compulsory pedagogy” (sometimes I guide them more patiently, sometimes I express my opinion directly) and to what extent, so that they could clarify their true intentions. In my experience, these institutions tend to prioritize their own “interests”. From a “business model” perspective, it is understandable that these cultural institutions want to get a “maximum benefit”, but the problem is precisely that these centers would like their projects and actions to obtain universal value by using “politically right” terms. “But will this exert a real influence on the Chinese community?” In many cases, the projects that they launch are nothing more than “pretended interest” and “frivolous action” to beautify their own political image. As an example, a renowned local art museum asked me twice to be an intercultural mediator, expecting that I could bring more Chinese visitors to the museum. Last year I organized a group of some 20 people to visit the space, but the process and content turned out to be very unsatisfactory. They didn´t design specific content and make corresponding changes for this group, nor did they care about its true visiting experience, but simply assume that the participation of Chinese minorities would be rather great. This year they found me again, but then I put forward my opinion, hoping to design with their staff suitable content for the Chinese visitors instead of using directly the existing model. Of course, the cost of designing such a program will be more.

THE GLOBAL FOCUS ON BLM AND FEMINISM HAS GIVEN BIRTH TO A LARGE NUMBER OF EMERGING AFRICAN ARTISTS AND FEMALE ARTISTS. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE RELATION BETWEEN YOUR ARTISTIC CREATION AND THE ZEITGEIST?

This might have something to do with my personal way of perceiving the world and positioning myself. How do I position myself? Do I do it all alone, or by observing the outside world? For me, this is more of a mutual nurturing thing. For example, by receiving information from the external world, I react, while my reaction could even change the outside world, thus I receive and give output again. My current creation is highly related to the social context and the environment that surrounds me (time, space, cross-cultural context, etc.), in other words, it has this nature in situ. Therefore, it would be invalid if I “copy” what I am doing in Spain and “paste” it directly into Chinese society. To remove this “incompatible” feeling so that the Western experience could serve the Chinese context, I would need to reposition myself. I tend to stay sensitive, curious, and also alert to the social environment and the scenario. I don’t want to be a “highbrow” artist. I tend to think about how the social mechanism works, what I want to create in this society, and even if my creation could change the outside world or bring something new.

For example, to me, feminism itself is a Western concept. It is not allowed in China like any other political movements. All the members of our project have been talking about our insecurity and hesitancy about this concept of “Western feminism.” Currently we all agree that the Crab Project is not a feminist group, but a female group, or more especifically, a “creative” group of collective performance. In the contemporary Western context, way too easily we might be misled by the mainstream “sensational”speech, and lose our independent thinking. Not knowing where one's true interest lies or focusing too much on what most people say, being extremely politically appropriate yet not sincere, one can easily be misled, because for me, the argument of the activists is usually compelling and exciting, or even “eloquent” and “sensational”, giving the majority of the public “an illusion of power and freedom”. Without independent and critical thinking, it is easy to fade into emptiness. So, for example, the political demands that we are making in “Liwai”, far from being just ideological, are implemented from a more practical perspective: the work we do is of “first necessity”, such as accompaniment for Chinese families in need, free service for women suffering from gender violence, intercultural mediation in schools and hospitals, free conferences and courses, etc.

Liwai Acción Internacioal. Matadero Madrid Open Doors Day; February, 2020

BACK TO THE FEMALE IDENTITY TOPIC, THE INTRODUCTION PAGE OF THE CRAB PROJECT MENTIONED: “WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A YOUNG CHINESE WOMAN IN SPAIN? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REMOVE THIS IMPOSED IDENTITY?” TO SOME EXTENT, THESE ARE ACTUALLY TWO OPPOSITE SIDES, ON ONE HAND, YOU ARE STRENGTHENING THIS IDENTITY. FOR INSTANCE, YOU EMPHASIZE THE CONCEPTS OF “WOMEN”, “CHINESE”, AND “ANTI-WESTERN HEGEMONY”; ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS AN ATTEMPT TO DILUTE THIS IDENTITY DIFFERENCE, WHICH IS IMPOSED BY THE OUTSIDE WORLD. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS CONTRADICTION?

The first sentence is a reflection about my identity since our first act in 2018: What does it mean to be a young Chinese woman in Spain? No one will ask me which country I'm from before coming abroad. These repeated questions from the outside world made me think: Well, I am Chinese, but what does this mean? And I also threw my personal doubts into the community. The collective may share this identity, but everyone's perception will be different. After our first act, we started to discuss whether it is necessary to keep talking about the Chinese women identity, so we had debate and also dialogues: Some people think it's necessary because this is our characteristic; others say there is no need to emphasize it now that we already look like this. Such positioning will even hinder the communication with other communities. It also troubled me for a long time. I would think about whether we should use it or not. And then at another stage (2019), I found out that I had fallen into this trap of duality. But in fact, there is no need to place one over another. We are always in the process of transformation and exploration. So when I pulled myself out, I no longer took it as a problem but something full of possibilities. What does it mean to be and not to be? What does it mean to use and get rid of this identity? The idea of “middle zone”, which is mentioned frequently by the famous curator Hou Hanru, can reflect the location range where our project is situated. There is no need to feel obliged to take this or remove that, but to make both of them stand at the same time, and to think about how we could play better these concepts. This kind of “initiative” can be considered as the premise and the key to our actions.

IS THERE ANY PLAN TO GO BACK TO CHINA IN THE FUTURE?

Sure. Nevertheless, going back immediately would be impossible because in that way all the connections that I have been making here for my career will be lost. But since I graduated from the Guangzhou Academy of Fine Arts, all my friends are still working in the art industry. They are also thinking about the possibility of inviting me to some residency or exchange projects. It won't be the entire Crab team. Ten of us going back to China to do performance art would be insane, but some of our creative experience and working methods of collective performance can be shared, as well as some of my personal thoughts.

WILL THERE BE MORE ART PROJECTS TO LAUNCH IN SPAIN IN THE FUTURE?

For the moment, we are mostly cooperating with cultural and art institutions, but we are also making plans for commercial development in the long turn. Now all the members participate voluntarily and have no economic benefits, since the financial support that we received is limited. So we are thinking about how to be more autonomous. I have a friend in China who does brand design and I also know a local photographer here. We are considering whether we can develop a series of derivative products of the Crab Project, or if there could be any other “performative” actions “non-offline”. This is more of the field of cultural management, combining my existing resources and Crab Project. Cultural management is another thing in which I want to be engaged besides being an artist and educator. Because the current invitations from cultural institutions are mostly for short-term projects. Faced with this problem, I find it necessary to create our own ecosystem of Chinese young artists living in Madrid. The project has also received funding support from Matadero. We have currently formed a group of six, each of whom has already gained a certain level of influence and maturity in their respective fields. We hope to create our own platform to discuss what we really want to do and how to make these projects more profound and sustainable.

[External links]

Xirou Xiao
Project Crab
Liwai Acción Intercultural

About China, about women, about Madrid: Interview with Xirou Xiao